Karti Chidambaram Interview: 'BJP's Vegetarian Hinduism Failed in Tamil Nadu'

On 'Badi Badi Baatein', Congress MP Karti Chidambaram talks BJP's defeat in Tamil Nadu, NEET controversy and more.

(Photo: The Quint)

Video Editor: Nitin Bisht

"You have to understand that Tamils are the most orthodox Hindus in India. Per square kilometre, we have more temples than any other state in India. We break more coconuts than anybody else. We are the most ritualistic people in India. So, you can't come and preach Hinduism to us," said Lok Sabha MP Karti Chidambaram, who recently registered a resounding victory in Tamil Nadu's Sivaganga.

His second consecutive win from the seat, the legacy that he inherits from his father and former union minister P Chidambaram leads to people assuming that he is not a 'grassroots politician,' he said.

"See, I have been involved in electoral politics since 1996. So, I have a fair sense of what happens on the ground," he said, commenting on why he was confident about the Bharatiya Janata Party's defeat in Tamil Nadu.

With state president Annamalai as its face, the BJP in the 2024 general elections registered its highest ever vote share of over 11% in the state. But the figure, he claimed, is exaggerated "just the way the BJP and Annamalai are exaggerated by the Delhi media."

On 'Badi Badi Baatein', he explains why the BJP lost in the state, why its idea of Hinduism failed in Tamil Nadu, the state's fight against NEET and the NTA, and the recent hooch tragedy in Kallakurichi.

You were one of the few people in the state who was very confident about the performance of the INDIA alliance in Tamil Nadu, despite the BJP having tried hard in the elections with Mr Annamalai as the face. What were the factors that made you think that it is going to be a rout?

See, I have been involved in electoral politics since 1996. So I have a fair sense of what happens on the ground. When you go to Tamil Nadu and speak to people, you will realize that they don't, first and foremost, subscribe to the Hindutva which is being propagated by the BJP. The BJP’s Hindutva, I have said this time and again, is a very North Indian, upper caste, vegetarian Hindutva. And that doesn't gel well with the people of Tamil Nadu. You have to understand that Tamils are the most orthodox Hindus in India. Per square kilometre, we have more temples than any other state in India. We break more coconuts than anybody else. We are the most ritualistic people in India, in fact. So, you can't come and preach Hinduism to us. 

And politically in Tamil Nadu also, you must understand, that alliances matter and party vote banks are pretty set, and they are transferable when it comes to an alliance, and that also plays a big part. If you notice the ADMK and the BJP contesting separately, and you know the ADMK is always an underestimated party in Tamil Nadu. And the BJP sometimes thinks that they are a larger political formation than the ADMK and that their votes…that is not true.

The ADMK is not given its due respect because they are a very rural political party. So, the national press somehow diminishes their presence and doesn't really account for their presence. Their vote bank is set. So, for a formation to defeat the DMK, which is again a formidable political party, with a set vote bank and its large alliance, sans the ADMK is impossible. It's electorally impossible.

And, the BJP is a gravely exaggerated political party in Tamil Nadu. I've said this time and again that you're given a megaphone and a magnifying glass to the BJP, so they're always blown beyond proportion. And then, the Delhi media has learned the name of the BJP Tamil Nadu president. I'm sure they can't name the previous president because this current BJP president is all over the place, particularly on social media, and is very liberal with his intemperate quotes to the media.

So, you’re noticing him but that does not translate into a ground game.

But despite the BJP-led front or AIADMK-led front not winning any seats, the BJP, as a party, has increased its vote share. It was about 5% in 2014. Then, it went down to 3% in 2019. But now it's over 11%. So, do you not think there is a ground momentum in their favour?

Again, you're misreading the data. First and foremost, the BJP did not contest alone. It had alliances. It had alliance with the PMK, which is a completely caste-based party concentrated in the northern regions of Tamil Nadu. So their votes are getting added to the BJP and they contested. So when you're looking at the BJP front’s vote share, you have to account for the PMK vote share into them.

And then the BJP had many alliances with caste-specific parties, and those caste-specific candidates contested on a BJP symbol. The next time around, the BJP contests without these caste parties and without these caste-specific candidates, they will not get this vote. So I do not believe the BJP has 11% vote. Yes, they would have marginally increased the vote, particularly in the upper caste sections of society, in certain urban areas, they would have gone up, but they are definitely not 11%. They definitely not double digit.

You have said in the past that a coalition government will always work more democratically. Mr. Modi is having to lead a coalition government now for the first time in ten years, where his party does not have the majority. Do you still think Mr. Nitish Kumar and Mr. Chandrababu Naidu will be able to function democratically within the NDA?

See, you're right. Coalition government, I believe in India, is intrinsically far more democratic than a single-party government. But when there is a coalition party, you have common minimum programs, you're forced to dialog, you're forced to come to compromises. But in this instance, Modi has no experience in running a coalition government. He has never run a coalition government as chief minister. He's never run a coalition government as prime minister for ten years. So this is a new experience for him. But whether these two alliance partners or significant alliance partners, will exert and will put their foot down on critical issues, remains to be seen. At the moment, I think they are very content in concentrating on their own states, consolidating their hold over their own states.

And also both of them are, have issues of succession which they want to smoothen out. Naidu has got a very clear successor in his son, and he wants to make sure that path is organized for him. Nitish Kumar doesn't have a successor, and there have been rumors that his son is going to be brought into the party.

So I think they both will be preoccupied with that, rather than locking horns with the central government on issues of constitutional propriety. But I hope so. You have to understand the history of both Nitish Kumar and Chandrababu Naidu. They have been on all sides of the aisle. They've really been all rounders in Indian politics. They've been with the BJP, they've opposed the BJP. But I don't see them being assertive to start with.

Coming to the parliament, we have a stronger opposition now. You in the past have said that at times you have been disappointed with your parliamentary stint because of the way the Parliament functions, especially in the past 5 to 10 years. We've seen how bills are passed, how suggestions are not going to the committees. Do you think it will be a different parliament this time with the numbers we have?

I hope so, but nothing has indicated there's going to be a change. You see, the fact that Mr. Modi has repeated his cabinet, man for man, woman for woman in the same portfolio, is very disappointing. That means there is not going to be change in the style and tenor of functioning. The ministers are going to stick to their same dogmatic positions. There's going to be no rethink on anything. That's point A. 

Not one adjournment motion was allowed in the last Lok Sabha. Would the same presiding officer allow adjournment motions now? Yes, we are numerically stronger, but still the government has a majority. Are they going to respect the mandate of the people saying that they have not given them a free pass and they need to be more congenial? I don’t know. But the early signs doesn't seem to be very encouraging. Let us see whether they offer the Deputy Speakership to the opposition ranks, and then somebody or someone of us becomes deputy Speaker. That will be a small step in the right direction.

Day one of the Parliament, we did see a unity in the INDIA bloc with the pictures of the Constitution, etc. Everybody was holding the copies of the Constitution. Do you expect a more united opposition this time?

The opposition is united. Only two people who didn't unite with the opposition have paid the price. Both the YSR Congress and the BJD, who are practically part of the NDA without declaring themselves to be part of the NDA, look at their fate today. I mean, they decided to dine in the table with them and they were poisoned in the end. That's what has happened to them. And I think this will be a good lesson for everybody else who thinks that they can have supper with the BJP in the same table.

Speaking of lessons, the Congress party is perceived to have weakened in the past ten years. Lot of key leaders left. There were infightings in a lot of state party units. Do you think there are certain things that the party needs to change or revisit or reconsider, now that it is the stronger party?

Absolutely, absolutely. See, while we are very pleased with our better performance now, there is no reason to be complacent. There are many, many structural things which need to be corrected. I mean, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but for Tamil Nadu, I can definitely speak. I know that our ranking in Tamil Nadu is slipping.

I mean, we are not the third political party as we used to claim. There are other political formations which I think have a slightly higher vote share than us on a standalone basis. So we need to really start taking corrective steps on a state-by-state basis. And we must empower state units to take decisions for themselves. Keep a national kind of an overarching umbrella under which you will operate, but allow state units to be federal in the true sense, and also to be very independent in taking decisions based on the ground.

But jokes apart, do you think that aspect will change this time, because in the first week itself we have seen a case being launched against author Arundhati Roy?

I don't see it changing at all. Unless the judiciary puts an end to this kind of vicious misuse of institutions, I do not see it stopping. I do not see it stopping because the BJP is a more chastened political party, and I do not see it stopping. Suddenly, these organizations are becoming more professional and apolitical. No, I don't see that happening.

It's been three weeks of the new government coming in. There is a very pointed criticism which is coming the opposition's way, which is- not speaking up enough on the communal unrest that has happened in several states, specifically crimes against Muslims. There have been communal tensions in Telangana, MP, there have been lynchings in UP, Chhattisgarh. Now that you are a stronger opposition.

We should speak about all these things. But as I said, these all should be spoken about by the state leaderships in the respective states. You know, I mean, there is no point for me sitting in Tamil Nadu commenting about something which is happening in Madhya Pradesh, that should be the state unit. The state unit must have the wherewithal and the articulation to make the point, and in the vernacular language which will have resonance there. And the National Party should not be coy in pointing out these kind of things which are happening, I agree with you. We should speak out more. We should be more articulate, and we should not be coy about these things at all. I agree with you.

You once joked that you have stopped buying computers because the ED comes and takes them away. Are you considering buying them now?

No, I don't know, because, you know, I've been raided like 15 times by both the agencies. Every time they come, they take away a phone, they take away a computer. Nothing comes out of it because these are all Apple products. I know they can't open it, you know. Even the FBI can't open it. They can keep it as good paperweight. They're probably keeping it as good paperweight.

There is an uproar in the country currently over irregularities in examinations. DMK has always been staunchly against NEET. So is the Congress. How do you look at this paper leak controversy?

See, the original opposition of Tamil Nadu for NEET was a federal argument. The argument was why should a central government conduct an examination for admission into colleges which have been founded, funded and managed by the state government? This is completely anti-federal and the Congress party subscribes to that view which has been propagated by almost all political parties in Tamil Nadu, barring the BJP. 

That was an argument where Tamil Nadu was actually alone. Other states did not really follow that argument. But now, with the complete mismanagement and fraud and corruption which is happening in NEET, everybody is now woken up and is asking for the abolition of NEET. And I think the NEET is going to come to a logical end very, very soon, because we have realized now that this is another racket. It is a moneymaking racket, a corrupt racket, it has anti-federal provisions in it. It used to have a CBSE bias. And now it's also because of the fact that you are allowed to write NEET multiple times. Before the intake was only based on the 12th standard marks of a particular class passing out of 12th standard.

Now we know every year the pool of people competing for seats is also getting more and more. And there are many, many problems which NEET has brought about, and it disadvantages people who can't afford to go to coaching classes. And if you actually look at the statistics of NEET, it's actually people who are writing it multiple times in multiple years who are getting through, not first timers.

You have in the past suggested that admissions to medical seats should be free of NEET as well. How do you propose that will work?

12th standard marks. Simple, 12th standard marks. Just go by the state board exams 12th standard marks, have some equalization between boards, and based on it. I mean, how many exams will a 17-year-old keep writing to get into college? And why are we even having a board exam then?

The sanctity of the board exam must be respected. State government decide to have some sort of entrance test on top of the 12th standard exam, that's fine. But you cannot completely disregard the school believing marks. And then these kind of entrance exams, by and large, favor those who can go to specialized coaching, which means there is a cost. So there is an economic barrier for people to access success in those exams because others who can't afford will not be able to go for coaching. And without coaching, you won't be able to crack it.

CBI is probing the entire controversy. The Education minister has taken moral responsibility. Do you think the government is doing everything it can to handle the irregularities?

No, I don't think so. I think the political head of the NTA has been let scot free. There's Mr. Joshi who I think is the chairman of the NTA. I mean, the director general has been changed and other things have changed. But Mr. Joshi is still happily in his position. And secondly, how can you base admissions this year on this examination results which completely lack integrity? So what happens this year? You can't admit people into medical colleges with this exam because we do not know the level of fraud which has happened, at what level it is permeated. So how can we admit medical college seats this year based on an examination which has no integrity?

Do you think the culture of taking moral responsibility has somewhere gone away? Because we have seen a lot happening in the past ten years. We have seen COVID, we have seen several train mishaps. Now we are seeing the NEET controversy. Everybody takes moral responsibility, but nobody steps down as a symbolism, as they used to in the previous times.

I agree with that. But let's also go back. Stepping down alone doesn't solve the problem. Really we should see- the problem has happened, how is it a systematic failure? I mean, for example, in the railways I think there is a systematic failure. I think we’re not investing enough in safety because this government is obsessed with vanity and ego projects. 

All they want to do is run very fast trains between big cities, won’t stop in a single small station, doesn't really care about passenger amenity for the people in the lower classes. So if that's a systemic problem, yes, I would think the head must roll. But this Lal Bahadur Shastri-type resignations, maybe some people can expect that of politicians, but what happens?

By removing the ministerial head, you are really not solving the problem. I would rather focus on solving the problem than for merely making a political point.

You spoke of systematic failure. That is one aspect which is being cited after the recent hooch tragedy in Tamil Nadu. How do you look at it?

Definitely. It's not only a systematic failure, it is also a criminal enterprise allowing to operate and thrive under the watch of the powers that be. I mean, I'm making no bones about it. You can't have an illicit liquor trade, it didn't happen one day and people died. This is obviously a regular retail feature, which means there is regular production, there's regular retail happening. And by some estimations, they say the illegal liquor trade size would be about 50% of the legal trade size. So it's a significant amount. And the legal trade size is about 40-45,000 crores in Tamil Nadu. So the illegal liquor would be about half of it, is about 20,000 crores. So this could not happen without the police knowing about it, without the district administration knowing about it, without political powers knowing about it.

I don't buy that. I think this has happened fully with the connivance and with the patronage of powers that be, be it bureaucratic, be it law enforcement or be it political. Yes, they have appointed a CBCID inquiry. They have asked a one man judicial commission. But I think accountability has to be fixed. When I say powers, it does not mean the highest echelons of powers. There could be powers at a district and a regional level which are completely involved in this system.